option_data_loss_protect: concretely define my_current_per_commitment_point

[niftynei]

Make it more obvious what the expected value of my_current_per_commitment_point is.

[niftynei]

@Roasbeef did you want to add some clarification to this?

[Roasbeef]

I think this would be more clear as:

to its current unrevoked commitment point (sent in the last revoke_and_ack message) used by its channel peer to create the last commitment it received from them

As this is the point that the party who lost data will need to use once the surviving party broadcasts their commitment on chain. In our codebase, we call it LocalUnrevokedCommitPoint for this reason. Main thing that IMO makes it easier to grasp is that this is the current unrevoked point for that party.

[rustyrussell]

How about we append:

(the commitment_point corresponding to the commitment transaction the sender would use to unilaterally close)

[niftynei]

amended to include clarification about being commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

[cfromknecht]

commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

Still seems like this is ambiguous when we have two unrevoked commitments. IINM, LND and CL will play different commitments when force closing in this scenario

[niftynei]

i'm being a bit dense, but can you elaborate on the scenario where you'd have two unrevoked commitments?

[cfromknecht]

Since A committed to 1, it's safe for B to consider it's at state 1

The HTLC sent to B isn't fully locked in at this point, it shouldn't be forwarded until B commits to state 1 and A sends a revocation for state 0 to B. The new HTLC is in sort of a limbo state until the full dance is completed.

and it's economically more viable because B received one more HTLC (compared to 0).

It could also be a settle/fail, in which case state 1 has one fewer HTLCs.

I could be wrong, but wouldn't it be more fair and economically interesting to take the highest?

Idk if there's an objective answer to this question. When there are multiple unrevoked commitments, which one is more economically viable depends on the state of the commitments and how the differing states impact the party that holds them.

Game theory would say B should play whichever nets them the most money.

If HTLCs are only added between 0 and 1 and:

• B is certain they won't learn the preimage (bc it was never locked in and couldn't forward it, or it was a probe to an exit hop), there's no reason to manifest that HTLC on chain. Commitment 0 in that case has fewer HTLCs and so we burn less to fees
• B already knows the preimage to the new HTLC (if they're the exit hop), then they should play 1 because they can pull that money (assuming it nets more than the fees to add it). Otherwise they should play 0 and take the loss

All of this is dependent on whether A or B funded the channel, since the initiator will pay the fees. It becomes more complex if there are both additions and removals, and whether the removals are settles or fails.

Anyway, don't wanna get too far away from the conversation at hand. The question we need to answer is: should the act of receiving a commitment inherently revoke your prior, or is it the act of the receiver persisting the revocation locally. If we go with the latter, at least it is consistent whether or not saving the commitment and revoking the prior are implemented atomically. Thoughts?

[t-bast]

Got it, it's indeed hard to decide whether it's more interesting for B to be at state 0 or 1, it depends on too many factors.

I'm not 100% sure what Eclair does in that case, I'll let @pm47 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that we choose state 1. Alice committed to it, so if we want to play nice we should resume the dance here and send our revoke_and_ack.

[pm47]

Eclair would send state 1. The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed). But aren't we all doing that?

In short I agree with @Roasbeef, we should send the latest unrevoked commitment point.

[cfromknecht]

The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed).

This is also how lnd handles the transition.

I wonder if something here could explain the dlp errors we’ve been seeing?

[cdecker]

ACK cd2a016

[niftynei]

merging as per action item at last spec meeting

[niftynei]

Make it more obvious what the expected value of my_current_per_commitment_point is.

[niftynei]

@Roasbeef did you want to add some clarification to this?

[Roasbeef]

I think this would be more clear as:

to its current unrevoked commitment point (sent in the last revoke_and_ack message) used by its channel peer to create the last commitment it received from them

As this is the point that the party who lost data will need to use once the surviving party broadcasts their commitment on chain. In our codebase, we call it LocalUnrevokedCommitPoint for this reason. Main thing that IMO makes it easier to grasp is that this is the current unrevoked point for that party.

[rustyrussell]

How about we append:

(the commitment_point corresponding to the commitment transaction the sender would use to unilaterally close)

[niftynei]

amended to include clarification about being commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

[cfromknecht]

commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

Still seems like this is ambiguous when we have two unrevoked commitments. IINM, LND and CL will play different commitments when force closing in this scenario

[niftynei]

i'm being a bit dense, but can you elaborate on the scenario where you'd have two unrevoked commitments?

[cfromknecht]

Since A committed to 1, it's safe for B to consider it's at state 1

The HTLC sent to B isn't fully locked in at this point, it shouldn't be forwarded until B commits to state 1 and A sends a revocation for state 0 to B. The new HTLC is in sort of a limbo state until the full dance is completed.

and it's economically more viable because B received one more HTLC (compared to 0).

It could also be a settle/fail, in which case state 1 has one fewer HTLCs.

I could be wrong, but wouldn't it be more fair and economically interesting to take the highest?

Idk if there's an objective answer to this question. When there are multiple unrevoked commitments, which one is more economically viable depends on the state of the commitments and how the differing states impact the party that holds them.

Game theory would say B should play whichever nets them the most money.

If HTLCs are only added between 0 and 1 and:

• B is certain they won't learn the preimage (bc it was never locked in and couldn't forward it, or it was a probe to an exit hop), there's no reason to manifest that HTLC on chain. Commitment 0 in that case has fewer HTLCs and so we burn less to fees
• B already knows the preimage to the new HTLC (if they're the exit hop), then they should play 1 because they can pull that money (assuming it nets more than the fees to add it). Otherwise they should play 0 and take the loss

All of this is dependent on whether A or B funded the channel, since the initiator will pay the fees. It becomes more complex if there are both additions and removals, and whether the removals are settles or fails.

Anyway, don't wanna get too far away from the conversation at hand. The question we need to answer is: should the act of receiving a commitment inherently revoke your prior, or is it the act of the receiver persisting the revocation locally. If we go with the latter, at least it is consistent whether or not saving the commitment and revoking the prior are implemented atomically. Thoughts?

[t-bast]

Got it, it's indeed hard to decide whether it's more interesting for B to be at state 0 or 1, it depends on too many factors.

I'm not 100% sure what Eclair does in that case, I'll let @pm47 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that we choose state 1. Alice committed to it, so if we want to play nice we should resume the dance here and send our revoke_and_ack.

[pm47]

Eclair would send state 1. The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed). But aren't we all doing that?

In short I agree with @Roasbeef, we should send the latest unrevoked commitment point.

[cfromknecht]

The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed).

This is also how lnd handles the transition.

I wonder if something here could explain the dlp errors we’ve been seeing?

[cdecker]

ACK cd2a016

[niftynei]

merging as per action item at last spec meeting

[niftynei]

Make it more obvious what the expected value of my_current_per_commitment_point is.

[niftynei]

@Roasbeef did you want to add some clarification to this?

[Roasbeef]

I think this would be more clear as:

to its current unrevoked commitment point (sent in the last revoke_and_ack message) used by its channel peer to create the last commitment it received from them

As this is the point that the party who lost data will need to use once the surviving party broadcasts their commitment on chain. In our codebase, we call it LocalUnrevokedCommitPoint for this reason. Main thing that IMO makes it easier to grasp is that this is the current unrevoked point for that party.

[rustyrussell]

How about we append:

(the commitment_point corresponding to the commitment transaction the sender would use to unilaterally close)

[niftynei]

amended to include clarification about being commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

[cfromknecht]

commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

Still seems like this is ambiguous when we have two unrevoked commitments. IINM, LND and CL will play different commitments when force closing in this scenario

[niftynei]

i'm being a bit dense, but can you elaborate on the scenario where you'd have two unrevoked commitments?

[cfromknecht]

Since A committed to 1, it's safe for B to consider it's at state 1

The HTLC sent to B isn't fully locked in at this point, it shouldn't be forwarded until B commits to state 1 and A sends a revocation for state 0 to B. The new HTLC is in sort of a limbo state until the full dance is completed.

and it's economically more viable because B received one more HTLC (compared to 0).

It could also be a settle/fail, in which case state 1 has one fewer HTLCs.

I could be wrong, but wouldn't it be more fair and economically interesting to take the highest?

Idk if there's an objective answer to this question. When there are multiple unrevoked commitments, which one is more economically viable depends on the state of the commitments and how the differing states impact the party that holds them.

Game theory would say B should play whichever nets them the most money.

If HTLCs are only added between 0 and 1 and:

• B is certain they won't learn the preimage (bc it was never locked in and couldn't forward it, or it was a probe to an exit hop), there's no reason to manifest that HTLC on chain. Commitment 0 in that case has fewer HTLCs and so we burn less to fees
• B already knows the preimage to the new HTLC (if they're the exit hop), then they should play 1 because they can pull that money (assuming it nets more than the fees to add it). Otherwise they should play 0 and take the loss

All of this is dependent on whether A or B funded the channel, since the initiator will pay the fees. It becomes more complex if there are both additions and removals, and whether the removals are settles or fails.

Anyway, don't wanna get too far away from the conversation at hand. The question we need to answer is: should the act of receiving a commitment inherently revoke your prior, or is it the act of the receiver persisting the revocation locally. If we go with the latter, at least it is consistent whether or not saving the commitment and revoking the prior are implemented atomically. Thoughts?

[t-bast]

Got it, it's indeed hard to decide whether it's more interesting for B to be at state 0 or 1, it depends on too many factors.

I'm not 100% sure what Eclair does in that case, I'll let @pm47 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that we choose state 1. Alice committed to it, so if we want to play nice we should resume the dance here and send our revoke_and_ack.

[pm47]

Eclair would send state 1. The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed). But aren't we all doing that?

In short I agree with @Roasbeef, we should send the latest unrevoked commitment point.

[cfromknecht]

The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed).

This is also how lnd handles the transition.

I wonder if something here could explain the dlp errors we’ve been seeing?

[cdecker]

ACK cd2a016

[niftynei]

merging as per action item at last spec meeting

[niftynei]

Make it more obvious what the expected value of my_current_per_commitment_point is.

[niftynei]

@Roasbeef did you want to add some clarification to this?

[Roasbeef]

I think this would be more clear as:

to its current unrevoked commitment point (sent in the last revoke_and_ack message) used by its channel peer to create the last commitment it received from them

As this is the point that the party who lost data will need to use once the surviving party broadcasts their commitment on chain. In our codebase, we call it LocalUnrevokedCommitPoint for this reason. Main thing that IMO makes it easier to grasp is that this is the current unrevoked point for that party.

[rustyrussell]

How about we append:

(the commitment_point corresponding to the commitment transaction the sender would use to unilaterally close)

[niftynei]

amended to include clarification about being commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

[cfromknecht]

commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

Still seems like this is ambiguous when we have two unrevoked commitments. IINM, LND and CL will play different commitments when force closing in this scenario

[niftynei]

i'm being a bit dense, but can you elaborate on the scenario where you'd have two unrevoked commitments?

[cfromknecht]

Since A committed to 1, it's safe for B to consider it's at state 1

The HTLC sent to B isn't fully locked in at this point, it shouldn't be forwarded until B commits to state 1 and A sends a revocation for state 0 to B. The new HTLC is in sort of a limbo state until the full dance is completed.

and it's economically more viable because B received one more HTLC (compared to 0).

It could also be a settle/fail, in which case state 1 has one fewer HTLCs.

I could be wrong, but wouldn't it be more fair and economically interesting to take the highest?

Idk if there's an objective answer to this question. When there are multiple unrevoked commitments, which one is more economically viable depends on the state of the commitments and how the differing states impact the party that holds them.

Game theory would say B should play whichever nets them the most money.

If HTLCs are only added between 0 and 1 and:

• B is certain they won't learn the preimage (bc it was never locked in and couldn't forward it, or it was a probe to an exit hop), there's no reason to manifest that HTLC on chain. Commitment 0 in that case has fewer HTLCs and so we burn less to fees
• B already knows the preimage to the new HTLC (if they're the exit hop), then they should play 1 because they can pull that money (assuming it nets more than the fees to add it). Otherwise they should play 0 and take the loss

All of this is dependent on whether A or B funded the channel, since the initiator will pay the fees. It becomes more complex if there are both additions and removals, and whether the removals are settles or fails.

Anyway, don't wanna get too far away from the conversation at hand. The question we need to answer is: should the act of receiving a commitment inherently revoke your prior, or is it the act of the receiver persisting the revocation locally. If we go with the latter, at least it is consistent whether or not saving the commitment and revoking the prior are implemented atomically. Thoughts?

[t-bast]

Got it, it's indeed hard to decide whether it's more interesting for B to be at state 0 or 1, it depends on too many factors.

I'm not 100% sure what Eclair does in that case, I'll let @pm47 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that we choose state 1. Alice committed to it, so if we want to play nice we should resume the dance here and send our revoke_and_ack.

[pm47]

Eclair would send state 1. The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed). But aren't we all doing that?

In short I agree with @Roasbeef, we should send the latest unrevoked commitment point.

[cfromknecht]

The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed).

This is also how lnd handles the transition.

I wonder if something here could explain the dlp errors we’ve been seeing?

[cdecker]

ACK cd2a016

[niftynei]

merging as per action item at last spec meeting

[niftynei]

Make it more obvious what the expected value of my_current_per_commitment_point is.

[niftynei]

@Roasbeef did you want to add some clarification to this?

[Roasbeef]

I think this would be more clear as:

to its current unrevoked commitment point (sent in the last revoke_and_ack message) used by its channel peer to create the last commitment it received from them

As this is the point that the party who lost data will need to use once the surviving party broadcasts their commitment on chain. In our codebase, we call it LocalUnrevokedCommitPoint for this reason. Main thing that IMO makes it easier to grasp is that this is the current unrevoked point for that party.

[rustyrussell]

How about we append:

(the commitment_point corresponding to the commitment transaction the sender would use to unilaterally close)

[niftynei]

amended to include clarification about being commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

[cfromknecht]

commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

Still seems like this is ambiguous when we have two unrevoked commitments. IINM, LND and CL will play different commitments when force closing in this scenario

[niftynei]

i'm being a bit dense, but can you elaborate on the scenario where you'd have two unrevoked commitments?

[cfromknecht]

Since A committed to 1, it's safe for B to consider it's at state 1

The HTLC sent to B isn't fully locked in at this point, it shouldn't be forwarded until B commits to state 1 and A sends a revocation for state 0 to B. The new HTLC is in sort of a limbo state until the full dance is completed.

and it's economically more viable because B received one more HTLC (compared to 0).

It could also be a settle/fail, in which case state 1 has one fewer HTLCs.

I could be wrong, but wouldn't it be more fair and economically interesting to take the highest?

Idk if there's an objective answer to this question. When there are multiple unrevoked commitments, which one is more economically viable depends on the state of the commitments and how the differing states impact the party that holds them.

Game theory would say B should play whichever nets them the most money.

If HTLCs are only added between 0 and 1 and:

• B is certain they won't learn the preimage (bc it was never locked in and couldn't forward it, or it was a probe to an exit hop), there's no reason to manifest that HTLC on chain. Commitment 0 in that case has fewer HTLCs and so we burn less to fees
• B already knows the preimage to the new HTLC (if they're the exit hop), then they should play 1 because they can pull that money (assuming it nets more than the fees to add it). Otherwise they should play 0 and take the loss

All of this is dependent on whether A or B funded the channel, since the initiator will pay the fees. It becomes more complex if there are both additions and removals, and whether the removals are settles or fails.

Anyway, don't wanna get too far away from the conversation at hand. The question we need to answer is: should the act of receiving a commitment inherently revoke your prior, or is it the act of the receiver persisting the revocation locally. If we go with the latter, at least it is consistent whether or not saving the commitment and revoking the prior are implemented atomically. Thoughts?

[t-bast]

Got it, it's indeed hard to decide whether it's more interesting for B to be at state 0 or 1, it depends on too many factors.

I'm not 100% sure what Eclair does in that case, I'll let @pm47 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that we choose state 1. Alice committed to it, so if we want to play nice we should resume the dance here and send our revoke_and_ack.

[pm47]

Eclair would send state 1. The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed). But aren't we all doing that?

In short I agree with @Roasbeef, we should send the latest unrevoked commitment point.

[cfromknecht]

The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed).

This is also how lnd handles the transition.

I wonder if something here could explain the dlp errors we’ve been seeing?

[cdecker]

ACK cd2a016

[niftynei]

merging as per action item at last spec meeting

[niftynei]

Make it more obvious what the expected value of my_current_per_commitment_point is.

[niftynei]

@Roasbeef did you want to add some clarification to this?

[Roasbeef]

I think this would be more clear as:

to its current unrevoked commitment point (sent in the last revoke_and_ack message) used by its channel peer to create the last commitment it received from them

As this is the point that the party who lost data will need to use once the surviving party broadcasts their commitment on chain. In our codebase, we call it LocalUnrevokedCommitPoint for this reason. Main thing that IMO makes it easier to grasp is that this is the current unrevoked point for that party.

[rustyrussell]

How about we append:

(the commitment_point corresponding to the commitment transaction the sender would use to unilaterally close)

[niftynei]

amended to include clarification about being commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

[cfromknecht]

commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

Still seems like this is ambiguous when we have two unrevoked commitments. IINM, LND and CL will play different commitments when force closing in this scenario

[niftynei]

i'm being a bit dense, but can you elaborate on the scenario where you'd have two unrevoked commitments?

[cfromknecht]

Since A committed to 1, it's safe for B to consider it's at state 1

The HTLC sent to B isn't fully locked in at this point, it shouldn't be forwarded until B commits to state 1 and A sends a revocation for state 0 to B. The new HTLC is in sort of a limbo state until the full dance is completed.

and it's economically more viable because B received one more HTLC (compared to 0).

It could also be a settle/fail, in which case state 1 has one fewer HTLCs.

I could be wrong, but wouldn't it be more fair and economically interesting to take the highest?

Idk if there's an objective answer to this question. When there are multiple unrevoked commitments, which one is more economically viable depends on the state of the commitments and how the differing states impact the party that holds them.

Game theory would say B should play whichever nets them the most money.

If HTLCs are only added between 0 and 1 and:

• B is certain they won't learn the preimage (bc it was never locked in and couldn't forward it, or it was a probe to an exit hop), there's no reason to manifest that HTLC on chain. Commitment 0 in that case has fewer HTLCs and so we burn less to fees
• B already knows the preimage to the new HTLC (if they're the exit hop), then they should play 1 because they can pull that money (assuming it nets more than the fees to add it). Otherwise they should play 0 and take the loss

All of this is dependent on whether A or B funded the channel, since the initiator will pay the fees. It becomes more complex if there are both additions and removals, and whether the removals are settles or fails.

Anyway, don't wanna get too far away from the conversation at hand. The question we need to answer is: should the act of receiving a commitment inherently revoke your prior, or is it the act of the receiver persisting the revocation locally. If we go with the latter, at least it is consistent whether or not saving the commitment and revoking the prior are implemented atomically. Thoughts?

[t-bast]

Got it, it's indeed hard to decide whether it's more interesting for B to be at state 0 or 1, it depends on too many factors.

I'm not 100% sure what Eclair does in that case, I'll let @pm47 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that we choose state 1. Alice committed to it, so if we want to play nice we should resume the dance here and send our revoke_and_ack.

[pm47]

Eclair would send state 1. The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed). But aren't we all doing that?

In short I agree with @Roasbeef, we should send the latest unrevoked commitment point.

[cfromknecht]

The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed).

This is also how lnd handles the transition.

I wonder if something here could explain the dlp errors we’ve been seeing?

[cdecker]

ACK cd2a016

[niftynei]

merging as per action item at last spec meeting

[niftynei]

Make it more obvious what the expected value of my_current_per_commitment_point is.

[niftynei]

@Roasbeef did you want to add some clarification to this?

[Roasbeef]

I think this would be more clear as:

to its current unrevoked commitment point (sent in the last revoke_and_ack message) used by its channel peer to create the last commitment it received from them

As this is the point that the party who lost data will need to use once the surviving party broadcasts their commitment on chain. In our codebase, we call it LocalUnrevokedCommitPoint for this reason. Main thing that IMO makes it easier to grasp is that this is the current unrevoked point for that party.

[rustyrussell]

How about we append:

(the commitment_point corresponding to the commitment transaction the sender would use to unilaterally close)

[niftynei]

amended to include clarification about being commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

[cfromknecht]

commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

Still seems like this is ambiguous when we have two unrevoked commitments. IINM, LND and CL will play different commitments when force closing in this scenario

[niftynei]

i'm being a bit dense, but can you elaborate on the scenario where you'd have two unrevoked commitments?

[cfromknecht]

Since A committed to 1, it's safe for B to consider it's at state 1

The HTLC sent to B isn't fully locked in at this point, it shouldn't be forwarded until B commits to state 1 and A sends a revocation for state 0 to B. The new HTLC is in sort of a limbo state until the full dance is completed.

and it's economically more viable because B received one more HTLC (compared to 0).

It could also be a settle/fail, in which case state 1 has one fewer HTLCs.

I could be wrong, but wouldn't it be more fair and economically interesting to take the highest?

Idk if there's an objective answer to this question. When there are multiple unrevoked commitments, which one is more economically viable depends on the state of the commitments and how the differing states impact the party that holds them.

Game theory would say B should play whichever nets them the most money.

If HTLCs are only added between 0 and 1 and:

• B is certain they won't learn the preimage (bc it was never locked in and couldn't forward it, or it was a probe to an exit hop), there's no reason to manifest that HTLC on chain. Commitment 0 in that case has fewer HTLCs and so we burn less to fees
• B already knows the preimage to the new HTLC (if they're the exit hop), then they should play 1 because they can pull that money (assuming it nets more than the fees to add it). Otherwise they should play 0 and take the loss

All of this is dependent on whether A or B funded the channel, since the initiator will pay the fees. It becomes more complex if there are both additions and removals, and whether the removals are settles or fails.

Anyway, don't wanna get too far away from the conversation at hand. The question we need to answer is: should the act of receiving a commitment inherently revoke your prior, or is it the act of the receiver persisting the revocation locally. If we go with the latter, at least it is consistent whether or not saving the commitment and revoking the prior are implemented atomically. Thoughts?

[t-bast]

Got it, it's indeed hard to decide whether it's more interesting for B to be at state 0 or 1, it depends on too many factors.

I'm not 100% sure what Eclair does in that case, I'll let @pm47 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that we choose state 1. Alice committed to it, so if we want to play nice we should resume the dance here and send our revoke_and_ack.

[pm47]

Eclair would send state 1. The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed). But aren't we all doing that?

In short I agree with @Roasbeef, we should send the latest unrevoked commitment point.

[cfromknecht]

The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed).

This is also how lnd handles the transition.

I wonder if something here could explain the dlp errors we’ve been seeing?

[cdecker]

ACK cd2a016

[niftynei]

merging as per action item at last spec meeting

[niftynei]

Make it more obvious what the expected value of my_current_per_commitment_point is.

[niftynei]

@Roasbeef did you want to add some clarification to this?

[Roasbeef]

I think this would be more clear as:

to its current unrevoked commitment point (sent in the last revoke_and_ack message) used by its channel peer to create the last commitment it received from them

As this is the point that the party who lost data will need to use once the surviving party broadcasts their commitment on chain. In our codebase, we call it LocalUnrevokedCommitPoint for this reason. Main thing that IMO makes it easier to grasp is that this is the current unrevoked point for that party.

[rustyrussell]

How about we append:

(the commitment_point corresponding to the commitment transaction the sender would use to unilaterally close)

[niftynei]

amended to include clarification about being commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

[cfromknecht]

commitment transaction sender would use to unilaterally close

Still seems like this is ambiguous when we have two unrevoked commitments. IINM, LND and CL will play different commitments when force closing in this scenario

[niftynei]

i'm being a bit dense, but can you elaborate on the scenario where you'd have two unrevoked commitments?

[cfromknecht]

Since A committed to 1, it's safe for B to consider it's at state 1

The HTLC sent to B isn't fully locked in at this point, it shouldn't be forwarded until B commits to state 1 and A sends a revocation for state 0 to B. The new HTLC is in sort of a limbo state until the full dance is completed.

and it's economically more viable because B received one more HTLC (compared to 0).

It could also be a settle/fail, in which case state 1 has one fewer HTLCs.

I could be wrong, but wouldn't it be more fair and economically interesting to take the highest?

Idk if there's an objective answer to this question. When there are multiple unrevoked commitments, which one is more economically viable depends on the state of the commitments and how the differing states impact the party that holds them.

Game theory would say B should play whichever nets them the most money.

If HTLCs are only added between 0 and 1 and:

• B is certain they won't learn the preimage (bc it was never locked in and couldn't forward it, or it was a probe to an exit hop), there's no reason to manifest that HTLC on chain. Commitment 0 in that case has fewer HTLCs and so we burn less to fees
• B already knows the preimage to the new HTLC (if they're the exit hop), then they should play 1 because they can pull that money (assuming it nets more than the fees to add it). Otherwise they should play 0 and take the loss

All of this is dependent on whether A or B funded the channel, since the initiator will pay the fees. It becomes more complex if there are both additions and removals, and whether the removals are settles or fails.

Anyway, don't wanna get too far away from the conversation at hand. The question we need to answer is: should the act of receiving a commitment inherently revoke your prior, or is it the act of the receiver persisting the revocation locally. If we go with the latter, at least it is consistent whether or not saving the commitment and revoking the prior are implemented atomically. Thoughts?

[t-bast]

Got it, it's indeed hard to decide whether it's more interesting for B to be at state 0 or 1, it depends on too many factors.

I'm not 100% sure what Eclair does in that case, I'll let @pm47 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that we choose state 1. Alice committed to it, so if we want to play nice we should resume the dance here and send our revoke_and_ack.

[pm47]

Eclair would send state 1. The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed). But aren't we all doing that?

In short I agree with @Roasbeef, we should send the latest unrevoked commitment point.

[cfromknecht]

The storing of the latest commit_sig and newly generated revoke_and_ack happens in one atomic step, so either we are at state 0, or we are at state 1 and the revocation has been generated and sent (and will be re-sent if needed).

This is also how lnd handles the transition.

I wonder if something here could explain the dlp errors we’ve been seeing?

[cdecker]

ACK cd2a016

[niftynei]

merging as per action item at last spec meeting