Environment colision between regular and free-threaded builds when using the Windows installer

[FFY00]

Bug report

Bug description:

From pypa/distutils#310

When free threaded CPython is installed from the official Windows installer it doesn't have the macro Py_GIL_DISABLED properly set becuase its pyconfig.h file is shared across the co-installed default build.

CPython versions tested on:

CPython main branch

Operating systems tested on:

No response

[FFY00]

This is mentioned in https://docs.python.org/3/howto/free-threading-extensions.html#windows. That text was added in 02b272b, which mentions was based on https://github.com/Quansight-Labs/free-threaded-compatibility/, but I was unable to find any references to this Windows quirk there, so I don't know if there was any prior discussion about it.

@colesbury, perhaps you could help clarify if there was any prior discussion?

I think it's important to understand why this limitation exists, and what we could possibly do to get around it.

[colesbury]

See #115582 (comment)

[FFY00]

That doesn't seem great 🫤

From what I can conjecture from #115582 (comment), it seems like we have a single installer that installs both free-threaded and regular binaries under the same prefix (sys.base_prefix). I am not sure what happens to sys.prefix here, but I hope it's not shared (not set to the same as sys.base_prefix), as that would mean site-packages is shared between the free-threaded and regular interpreters, which wouldn't be great.

The approach we have taken with Python installations on Windows is that each installation must have its own prefix. On POSIX, the prefix can be shared, as all paths containing installation-specific files include the version and ABI flags.

If we want to fix this issue, I think free-threaded builds on Windows should either be installed to a different prefix, or adopt the POSIX approach ¹. To keep in line with the usual expectations of how programs work on Windows, I think it's better to keep the paths as-is, and simply install free-threaded builds to a different prefix.

Steve mentions the issue with that approach:

• separate the entire prefix, which messes with anyone trying to launch/reference python3.13t.exe

I don't think I understand which specific use-case this is referencing. @zooba could you clarify?

Footnotes

1. This would be nice, as we could use the same paths across all platforms. ↩

[zooba]

I am not prepared to produce a second set of installers in order to install to a separate prefix, nor do I want to modify the existing installer in order to do that. It is too big a risk for regular users. I presented this to the steering council and they agreed with the current design. We also don't want to confuse users further by having a much longer list of installers to choose from on the downloads page.

One day, the separate free-threaded builds go away and we'll just have one install again (potentially with free-threaded enabled all the time by default). I don't care to over-design this scenario now, since we know it'll go away.

POSIX is different because a build-time generated Makefile and _sysconfig_data is distributed as part of the install. On Windows, we don't do this, so the only way to get at compile-time options is by running the interpreter and looking at sys or sysconfig (one day we'll get that static JSON file with all the info in it, right? ;) )

So basically, we need an idea that:

• doesn't add more than (probably) one new download option to the downloads page
• installs an entire copy of the runtime, not just the freethreaded build
• modifies otherwise static files at compile time (potentially only when producing the installer)
• doesn't interfere with a regular install (shortcuts, associations, etc.)
• satisfies the steering council

My best recommendation right now is to get your freethreaded build through uv, which ought to be getting it from the Nuget packages, which already meet all of these requirements. For those who'd rather get their builds from Nuget directly (like cibuildwheel, IIUC), that's also pretty straightforward.

But I really don't want to mess with the installer too much. It's fragile enough already (I'd prefer to deprecate and replace it entirely, but haven't got a better option - though I'm starting to discuss better options).

[zooba]

There's more context on why the current design is as it is at python/steering-council#225 (with links to even more context)

[FFY00]

I am not prepared to produce a second set of installers in order to install to a separate prefix, nor do I want to modify the existing installer in order to do that. It is too big a risk for regular users.

That's fair, though it's not clear to me how installing to different prefixes would add a significant risk for users.

I presented this to the steering council and they agreed with the current design.

Sorry I missed that, though reading the discussion there, it doesn't seem like the implications of having different build in the same prefix were properly considered.

We also don't want to confuse users further by having a much longer list of installers to choose from on the downloads page.

I agree, I think the best option would be to modify the current installer to install both builds in a separate prefix, but if you aren't comfortable with that, that's okay.

One day, the separate free-threaded builds go away and we'll just have one install again (potentially with free-threaded enabled all the time by default). I don't care to over-design this scenario now, since we know it'll go away.

Yes, but the PEP 703 estimate for that is 2026–2027, so it'll still be a while. But I understand where you are coming from.

POSIX is different because a build-time generated Makefile and _sysconfig_data is distributed as part of the install. On Windows, we don't do this, so the only way to get at compile-time options is by running the interpreter and looking at sys or sysconfig (one day we'll get that static JSON file with all the info in it, right? ;) )

I don't understand how that affects things here 😅

So basically, we need an idea that:

* doesn't add more than (probably) one new download option to the downloads page

* installs an entire copy of the runtime, not just the freethreaded build

* modifies otherwise static files at compile time (potentially only when producing the installer)

* doesn't interfere with a regular install (shortcuts, associations, etc.)

* satisfies the steering council

My proposal was to have the installer install a regular build to ...\Python\Python314, and a free-threaded build to ...\Python\Python314t. IMO the free-threaded build doesn't need shortcuts, associations, or anything like that, the installer can simply keep only providing that for the regular build.

Otherwise, the only other option I see is to add the version and ABI flags to the paths, like it's done for POSIX.

[zooba]

it's not clear to me how installing to different prefixes would add a significant risk for users.

Yeah, it's really not obvious until you get pretty deep into Windows Installer (and have debugged a number of weird scenarios).

Basically it boils down to the installers being a mix of generated, calculated, and static UUIDs. These identify installable products, features and components, which may contain files. The files themselves don't matter to the installer, just the UUID. Which means if you get any unintentional overlap, you get corrupted installs - files won't be properly added, or they'll be removed or moved to a different location.

The advantages are all for in-place updates - we can reliably detect previous versions of the same thing, and handle them efficiently. It doesn't matter so much these days, because we no longer care about the difference between downloading 100KB vs 1MB, or copying 100 files vs 1000 files. So it seems just as efficient to just download/copy everything all the time, and the effort to minimise things seems wasted.

But anyway, with all these UUIDs around, forking the installer to be parallel to the original requires very carefully making sure all the static UUIDs are new, and all the calculated ones aren't going to generate conflicts. Otherwise, users who have a regular install and the freethreaded install will get weird behaviour - weird as in individual files just disappearing, or install steps being skipped no matter how you try to trigger them, or entire features being skipped because they're "already installed". We recently had a release refuse to "downgrade" a component, and so it just removed it and silently left it missing, and people's Python wouldn't run unless they'd installed an equivalent component separately.

And this is before we get to things like registry keys or environment variables.

Like I said, I'd love to deprecate and replace the whole thing. But I won't do that without an equally user friendly alternative, because literally millions of people rely on clicking through this on a regular basis. I've been thinking about/designing alternatives for years, and am only just starting to get towards something I'm happy with, but we're a few years away from being able to deprecate this current installer. Free threading will likely be merged by then ;)

[FFY00]

Gotcha, I understand now.

What about the alternative, then? Changing the install layout to include the version and ABI flags.

[zooba]

From the installer POV, that's just a different default install directory. That's the trivial part - it's being able to install the second installer at the same time as the main one and have them both work correctly that adds all the risk.

I suspect the people who are trying to validate free-threaded binaries at this point would be just as happy to download a zip file and manage it themselves? If so, they can go to python-freethreaded, pythonx86-freethreaded or pythonarm64-freethreaded and use the "Download package" link on the right to get them (it's a zip file renamed to .nupkg, and the binaries are under the tools directory). And before anyone asks, I don't consider this a suitable alternative to the installer for most users most of the time, and putting the download links directly on python.org makes the list too long.

The challenge is the install method, not the layout.

[FFY00]

From the installer POV, that's just a different default install directory. That's the trivial part - it's being able to install the second installer at the same time as the main one and have them both work correctly that adds all the risk.

Ah, right 🤦

Other thought, would changing between the regular and free-threading binaries based on a user selection in the installer be viable? This would add the limitation of only allowing either one, but I personally think that's okay.

I suspect the people who are trying to validate free-threaded binaries at this point would be just as happy to download a zip file and manage it themselves? If so, they can go to python-freethreaded, pythonx86-freethreaded or pythonarm64-freethreaded and use the "Download package" link on the right to get them (it's a zip file renamed to .nupkg, and the binaries are under the tools directory). And before anyone asks, I don't consider this a suitable alternative to the installer for most users most of the time, and putting the download links directly on python.org makes the list too long.

The challenge is the install method, not the layout.

I am happy with any of those scenarios, and would be +1 towards dropping the free-threaded support from the installer. Having two builds with the same paths is problematic, and I am sure we will see more issues other than the pyconfig.h one.

[rgommers]

Having two builds with the same paths is problematic, and I am sure we will see more issues other than the pyconfig.h one.

I wouldn't be sure of that at all, given that no other issues have materialized yet and testing by package authors and end users has been pretty heavy recently.

Dropping the option for what is at this point a hypothetical second issue does not seem like a good idea, since it incurs a bunch of work for docs, breaks blog posts already published, and may break CI systems that rely on scripts pointing at the current installers (e.g., if using the Invoke-WebRequest method documented at https://py-free-threading.github.io/installing_cpython/#pythonorg-installers).

Doing nothing and closing this issue seems preferable here, unless more bugs show up.

[FFY00]

I wouldn't be sure of that at all, given that no other issues have materialized yet and testing by package authors and end users has been pretty heavy recently.

The current user base is small and technical, I am not worried about those users. As this gets further adoption, less technical users will start experimenting with it and will eventually run into issues they absolutely shouldn't, like mismatched package installations.

Sharing sys.prefix on Windows means that site-packages are also shared, so you could pip install something on the free-threaded build and then have the regular build failing to load it.

ffy00@DESKTOP-VP183NR C:\Program Files\Python313>python3.13t -m pip install numpy
Collecting numpy
 Downloading numpy-2.1.3-cp313-cp313t-win_amd64.whl.metadata (60 kB)
Downloading numpy-2.1.3-cp313-cp313t-win_amd64.whl (12.6 MB)
 ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ 12.6/12.6 MB 3.8 MB/s eta 0:00:00
Installing collected packages: numpy
 WARNING: The scripts f2py.exe and numpy-config.exe are installed in 'C:\Program Files\Python313\Scripts' which is not on PATH.
 Consider adding this directory to PATH or, if you prefer to suppress this warning, use --no-warn-script-location.
Successfully installed numpy-2.1.3

[notice] A new release of pip is available: 24.2 -> 24.3.1
[notice] To update, run: python3.13t.exe -m pip install --upgrade pip

ffy00@DESKTOP-VP183NR C:\Program Files\Python313>python
Python 3.13.0 (tags/v3.13.0:60403a5, Oct 7 2024, 09:38:07) [MSC v.1941 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import numpy
Traceback (most recent call last):
 File "C:\Program Files\Python313\Lib\site-packages\numpy\_core\__init__.py", line 23, in <module>
 from . import multiarray
 File "C:\Program Files\Python313\Lib\site-packages\numpy\_core\multiarray.py", line 10, in <module>
 from . import overrides
 File "C:\Program Files\Python313\Lib\site-packages\numpy\_core\overrides.py", line 8, in <module>
 from numpy._core._multiarray_umath import (
 add_docstring, _get_implementing_args, _ArrayFunctionDispatcher)
ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'numpy._core._multiarray_umath'

During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:

Traceback (most recent call last):
 File "C:\Program Files\Python313\Lib\site-packages\numpy\__init__.py", line 127, in <module>
 from numpy.__config__ import show as show_config
 File "C:\Program Files\Python313\Lib\site-packages\numpy\__config__.py", line 4, in <module>
 from numpy._core._multiarray_umath import (
 ...<3 lines>...
 )
 File "C:\Program Files\Python313\Lib\site-packages\numpy\_core\__init__.py", line 49, in <module>
 raise ImportError(msg)
ImportError:

IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ THIS FOR ADVICE ON HOW TO SOLVE THIS ISSUE!

Importing the numpy C-extensions failed. This error can happen for
many reasons, often due to issues with your setup or how NumPy was
installed.

We have compiled some common reasons and troubleshooting tips at:

 https://numpy.org/devdocs/user/troubleshooting-importerror.html

Please note and check the following:

 * The Python version is: Python3.13 from "C:\Program Files\Python313\python.exe"
 * The NumPy version is: "2.1.3"

and make sure that they are the versions you expect.
Please carefully study the documentation linked above for further help.

Original error was: No module named 'numpy._core._multiarray_umath'


The above exception was the direct cause of the following exception:

Traceback (most recent call last):
 File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
 import numpy
 File "C:\Program Files\Python313\Lib\site-packages\numpy\__init__.py", line 132, in <module>
 raise ImportError(msg) from e
ImportError: Error importing numpy: you should not try to import numpy from
 its source directory; please exit the numpy source tree, and relaunch
 your python interpreter from there.
>>>

And since pretty much all projects ship separate wheels for free-threaded and non-free-threaded builds, making it impossible to have a package installation that is valid in both builds, as it stands you pretty much have to decide whether you want a free-threaded or non-free-threaded environment.

While I think this is okay while we are still working on the free-threaded adoption by the bigger packages, as soon as that is done, and we start getting the broader community to test free-threading and adding support to their own projects, I personally don't think this UX is acceptable.

Dropping the option for what is at this point a hypothetical second issue does not seem like a good idea, since it incurs a bunch of work for docs, breaks blog posts already published, and may break CI systems that rely on scripts pointing at the current installers (e.g., if using the Invoke-WebRequest method documented at py-free-threading.github.io/installing_cpython#pythonorg-installers).

You are right in pointing out the impact of changes in the installer, and that should be a consideration while deciding how to proceed, but I disagree with the severity of the issue. Like I said, I don't think it's a major issue right now, but I think it will be as free-threading starts seeing more adoption.

Doing nothing and closing this issue seems preferable here, unless more bugs show up.

I disagree with you on this 🫤

I think if it's possible to select between the free-threaded and regular build on the installer, we should consider that. I'll wait for Steve to say if that's viable or not.

If that is not possible, I think we should, at the minimum, add the ABI flags to the site-packages path on Windows.

[zooba]

We can make changes for 3.14, no problem. It's just deciding what those changes will be.

Having the installer switch is basically as bad as having two parallel installers, or alternatively it's confusing in that python.exe goes away and only python3.14t.exe remains (if the only thing we change is to make the current exe component optional).

Merging the site-packages folder is pretty bad, yeah. But it shouldn't matter if the only thing you do is create a venv and work in that. I'd rather not force everyone through having to deal with renamed site-packages for a couple of versions (particularly the package installers). Maybe they're abstracted enough from it, but I'm not sure.

Alternatively, we take it out of the installer entirely and figure out some reasonable way to link to three ZIP files (or three "cheap" installers) from the downloads page? Some way that ensures the 99% of downloads who don't want it won't choose it by mistake - the existing six entries on there are already confusing enough.

https://py-free-threading.github.io/installing_cpython/#pythonorg-installers

I wish this pointed to the Nuget packages instead :(